The new reality of internal security

00:00:00: Welcome to Decision Point, the new Roder & Schwarz podcast on digital investigations.

00:00:17: My name is Jennifer Rauch and I'm your host today.

00:00:19: with me is Sebastian Richter, Vice President for Monitoring and Analytics at Roder&Schwarz.

00:00:24: Hi, Sebastian!

00:00:25: And welcome.

00:00:32: So this is really happening, our very first episode.

00:00:36: We are officially on air.

00:00:38: so let's start with a fair question did the world really need another podcast?

00:00:44: Well that's a fairly good question.

00:00:46: I would say no because we have millions of podcasts On the other side.

00:00:50: i've never heard one regarding the security topic were talking about.

00:00:54: so yes If you have a different opinion, don't tell us or if you want to tell us please put it into the comments and we'll make sure that at least create podcast in way interesting for you.

00:01:08: Exactly!

00:01:09: We felt there's need for conversation like this especially right now because where talk about security investigation is still catching up with how security works today.

00:01:20: And what's happening right now is not just the technological shift, it's a structural change in how investigations are conducted and information used.

00:01:31: Absolutely!

00:01:32: This happens every area of our lives.

00:01:34: I mean if we look at private life using mobile phones from Apple or Samsung We're using the internet.

00:01:43: for some time everything became digital so it would be strange if you will think that the world of crime and security and homeland security wouldn't turn digital.

00:01:54: So absolutely, The World has changed in this still changing?

00:01:57: Yeah!

00:01:58: That's right.

00:01:59: And exactly why we are doing this podcast not to talk about how security landscape has changed.

00:02:06: our digital investigations become more important end.

00:02:10: We want to take a look at what we call lawful intelligence Because in the end, this is about something very simple.

00:02:18: Making sure that we can still live our daily life safely?

00:02:22: Absolutely!

00:02:22: I mean you got it... You boiled a town down to the point of... The equation is Our personal freedom equals security.

00:02:30: if We have security with Personal Freedom i would like To compare It With an insurance policy.

00:02:34: your paying for An Insurance Policy In the case That Something Happens But Your Wish For Never Having to Use It because you want to live continue the way your living today.

00:02:44: And same is true for back topic, so we've seen incidents that you pointed at like the power outage in Berlin has a real impact on personal lives.

00:02:53: other things that happened in Germany and for example Magdeburg in München in Mannheim.

00:02:58: So those things had an impact of personal life.

00:03:01: so security does matter our private lives.

00:03:03: Yes off course beside these incident maybe can bring this into a situation that's maybe more relatable.

00:03:10: Imagine a large football match or public viewing event, so you arrive there is crowd people are in the right mood Some have the wrong but anyways you move through the entrance there's a quick security check.

00:03:21: maybe you grab it ring find your spot among the other fans and yeah that stuff is up to energy rises.

00:03:27: everyone is focused on the game.

00:03:29: from this perspective everything feels easy familiar and safe.

00:03:33: You are not thinking about coordination or you're not thinkin' bout information flows, what might be happening behind the scenes?

00:03:42: And that's exactly the point, isn't it?

00:03:44: Because for to feel that simple a lot of things have come together in their background.

00:03:49: Jenny you had very good example with football games.

00:03:52: so World Cup in front us and what people see within our eyes they don't see.

00:03:57: threats might work on the back ground or happen minute later.

00:04:02: So a lot of people took care of your safety.

00:04:04: when you enter the stadium, football stadium for example weeks and months beforehand monitoring what's going on in digital space.

00:04:12: In cyberspace something that you can't see with your own eyes following people making sure that security is there And equipped with right technology to make sure that the stadium plays itself secure no one has chance to attack Again.

00:04:26: this coming back to freedom watching football game In peace means a lot of people have worked in the background and are still working on that.

00:04:34: Exactly,

00:04:35: I think what you just mentioned here is situations need to be understood early information needs connected decisions needed before anything bad happens.

00:04:46: And that's where the real challenge begins, not in reacting to what is happening but making sense of how it really matters.

00:04:53: That's why I'd love your perspective, Sebastian.

00:04:55: when you look at todays security landscape – What feels fundamentally different compared with a few years ago?

00:05:02: It feels different that technology changes both sides.

00:05:06: so if you are on let us call it dark side and would want do something bad Then you have a lot of tools at hand today, it's artificial intelligence.

00:05:15: So let's take an example in Germany who called it ankle tricks or someone calling up your grandma pretending its you trying to get money from her?

00:05:25: In the past that means you have to impose imposter to be her grandchild and talk with them.

00:05:32: Internal knowledge you have to convince her here that person.

00:05:35: To get money.

00:05:36: so with artificial intelligence, You can create a fake voice?

00:05:39: He can actually create the voice of That person because that person posted something on Instagram or on YouTube and we even heard Of cases from law enforcement agencies but they were using video.

00:05:52: So there kind of a video call in posturing that day.

00:05:55: are a person They are in real.

00:05:58: did reality getting money?

00:05:59: so it means This raise of technology is happening on both sides.

00:06:03: It means if you're in the federal police agency, for example or an agency taking care of your security it means that you need to have that technology and be faster more agile flexible enough To counter those threats.

00:06:18: So this has changed.

00:06:19: The speed has changed dramatically.

00:06:22: What we see not only more technology like artificial intelligence as mentioned A lot of more data, and it's a different level of complexity.

00:06:33: Maybe you can tell us about what does that look like in practice?

00:06:38: What does this mean for people who work at law enforcement or police

00:06:41: departments?".

00:06:42: It means to master the physical world as well as the cyberworld... ...and combine both worlds!

00:06:48: In the past, all he needed was a notebook with pen running around interviewing people looking for clues then adding them up looking at huge posters and his wall.

00:07:00: You can imagine this wall is now has an infinitive size because you're looking in the cyberspace, a physical space to combine information from both spaces into one picture.

00:07:10: so what's really happening?

00:07:12: How do you combine information that seems completely unrelated ?

00:07:16: And we have to do it over certain periods of time with petabytes of data.

00:07:21: So need help technology then to make an arrest in the physical world, so for all law enforcement agencies and people working with those agencies it means they need to understand technology.

00:07:34: They need to know what can be done as well And we have to make sure that there are tools, sensors information at hand To get these final clues together and to make the rest in the end of physical world.

00:07:51: Yeah, this isn't just something we see a day-to-day operation.

00:07:54: it's also reflected.

00:07:55: that is strategic level across Europe where seeing initiatives around lawful access data.

00:08:01: The evidence framework and broader use security strategies all pointing at the same direction.

00:08:06: investigations are becoming more digital as you mentioned and more interconnected.

00:08:11: And this isn t just theory You can see very clearly on current operations.

00:08:16: So, Euripol recently communicated a global operation targeting more than seventy-five thousand users in the context of DDRS activities.

00:08:24: And I think this is good example how policing works today for authorities that challenges not just access to information.

00:08:32: it's bringing data from different sources together and they lead still reliable legally sound insights.

00:08:38: so just as you mentioned.

00:08:39: yeah!

00:08:40: That what we want talk about today internal security digital investigations lawful intelligence.

00:08:47: Would you say that this shift is as much structural?

00:09:14: Because if someone is crossing the border, having something we need to know about that.

00:09:19: We should make sure they connect information with this person.

00:09:23: a few days later he plans for example an attack on a stadium you just mentioned.

00:09:29: so we have this trace across all different areas of investigations and I think This means structurally, we need to be set up in a different way and make sure that silos aren't silos anymore.

00:09:42: And technology-wise We need to make sure all this data or the sensor data comes together on an analysis platform That makes sure that this information is connected, analysed... ...and that we understand how it relates with each other.

00:09:57: So let's get some spot-acrossing info together if someone plans something they don't want in Germany and our homeland.

00:10:08: So this is where structurally, on a technology dimension we need to make sure that we change the way how it works

00:10:16: together.".

00:10:16: You can say if you want to

00:10:28: master lawful intelligence which means within an illegal framework that you have no silos, no boundaries.

00:10:37: You need to make sure of the right information at the right point in time and place... ...to get this final clue where shadow combs needed a notepad.

00:10:46: we need some intelligence in a lawful.

00:10:50: This is always important because there are lots of laws.

00:10:52: We need obey laws, stay within an illegal framework At least in Germany.

00:10:56: But it's very important.

00:10:57: so we must ensure those tools and legal frameworks Interconnecting this information.

00:11:04: So, This would be my term and it doesn't matter if the information is coming from a sensor at the German border taking our home net or country as an example.

00:11:13: all these informations are coming form a sensor in football stadium.

00:11:18: It needs to be interconnected.

00:11:19: so its about turning fragmented information into something structured connected and usable for decisions, not just insightful but also kind of explainable and defensible from data to court.

00:11:33: Yes definitely this needs to be airtight.

00:11:38: so in the end you need have the airtight proof that someone tried to do something And that's very difficult.

00:11:46: I mean, talking about puzzles we're in here with a puzzle which has billions of different pieces and every puzzle piece for itself doesn't represent a clue or something that would be actionable in the court.

00:11:57: but having a billion puzzle pieces together the bigger pictures we are talking about, big pictures and puzzles.

00:12:06: That's exactly the job of lawful intelligence in the top off the technology in the end under human being behind the technology using it.

00:12:14: if sounds almost like a flow collecting information connecting an analyzing yet invent preparing decisions is that fair way to describe it?

00:12:23: It just a fairway to describe but sounds very easy right?

00:12:26: sound like solving a puzzle with ten pieces between the input.

00:12:29: you just described.

00:12:30: those easy steps In reality is a lot of time.

00:12:34: A lot of humans behind it petabytes of data flowing and sometimes good old police work driving around, connecting the physical to the cyber world as described before.

00:12:45: but those are basically three steps you need take

00:12:48: I think because in the end for once out there so the police officers or members law enforcement Everything comes down to that one moment.

00:12:58: At the moment you have to decide and I think in that moment, You don't need more data or clarity but kind of confidence.

00:13:05: What do you think makes a system truly useful at this decision point?

00:13:10: It depends on your use case situation.

00:13:13: If someone is following a gang of criminals just making up a case here That works over years in the same way robbing houses selling drugs and we can take a million examples.

00:13:25: So, In that case you need to be able to collect data of long period time making sure that connecter data collected on first January is connected with the data you collected next year First of January.

00:13:37: so meaning that if it looks Long span of Time then make sure That You Can Look at With Your Tooling Is Making This Connection.

00:13:45: There's One Connection That Matters At The End tool or the technology needs to help.

00:13:51: To make that connection, you need some special unit right in front of a door and then you have real-time information for some software to do the analysis and come back in a couple of hours, you need it at this one second.

00:14:19: To make the final decision whether I enter into house yes or no?

00:14:22: Is that one in-the-house blocked into his computer?

00:14:25: then i want to burst into the house and catch him red handed at his computer securing the data.

00:14:31: all do have to wait So this information needs to be there as well, so it's a completely different use cases for different investigators and all those use cases need to covered by lawful intelligence solutions.

00:14:43: And how do we cover these challenges?

00:14:46: We are not working in police departments or something like that... How can we support our customers here?

00:14:54: I would like to work at the Police Department!

00:14:56: So, as you say this I think it's a very important job and an interesting job.

00:15:01: It is not like in the television so they are not doing that every day.

00:15:04: but on more serious note we ask how do we support them?

00:15:09: We're talking about the structures of technology... ...so all those tools can be given to these people during their work everyday.

00:15:22: This is what we can support.

00:15:24: We can support them with the right sensors to collect and write data, but you can't support them by the right analysis tools that make sure this petabytes of data I was talking about are getting analyzed in a way where they do something useful for that.

00:15:37: And we can also support different use cases The ad hoc real-time user case I just described or used following this gang over here collecting all those cases preemptively making sure that let's come back to the football stadium.

00:15:55: Drone threats are real thing right now, so as you know drones are a big threat for us and this is I'm not talking about military case i mean there it's very obvious but anyone could fly drone in any one who can do something harmful with a drone.

00:16:09: So It became an important mission for us And for Germany to protect our critical infrastructure.

00:16:16: This is something we can support with technology to make sure that this critical infrastructure and you gave the example of Berlin, what happens if it doesn't work anymore?

00:16:24: And there's a power outage.

00:16:26: These are some things We Can Support Without Technology.

00:16:28: Yeah I think The real value from Roth and Schwarz comes From bringing everything together right.

00:16:33: so It's not about adding just Adding more tools or solutions.

00:16:39: That's About creating A consistent flow from Data To Analyzes and Decision.

00:16:44: i think this is also a very natural expectation from the customer side right if you look at it from user perspective.

00:16:52: so in daily life people don't want to deal with multiple systems that don't connect with each other.

00:16:57: and we're honest I don't wanted my private live either of you.

00:17:01: Think about everyday life.

00:17:02: we used have separate devices phone camera computer something for payments into day.

00:17:07: everything is integrated into one device as mentioned its beginning or smartphone, Yeah, and I think it's a similar expectation in the security environment that systems should work seamlessly together almost like one solution rather than isolated tools.

00:17:21: And this is what we offer at One Stop Shop every solution out of one hand.

00:17:26: so maybe let's make a little deep dive into our solutions because there are many technologies out there but not all of them actually help on that critical moment when decisions have to be made.

00:17:37: So What does our portfolio at Roder & Schwarz offer for law enforcement public safety?

00:17:42: Can you take us a little bit deeper?

00:17:44: Absolutely.

00:17:45: This is my daily job, so let me explain to you why I think that we are set up to support this end-to-end for our customer because it's important to describe the three steps perfectly what needs be done?

00:18:02: and collect data or process data in the end and analyze data presented to human beings operating system.

00:18:09: So across this end-to-end chain we are supporting them along the way.

00:18:14: We have sensors that's in the RF space, there is a cyberspace.

00:18:18: so IP sensors for example to collect data were able to process their data and we had solutions.

00:18:27: So along this chain, we have those solutions.

00:18:33: I gave the example of protecting against a drone threat that something we take care off as well which became more and more relevant in the civilian space.

00:18:41: Thanks for these insights, Sebastian And dear listener if you want to learn about our solutions on how they can help your missions just wait for our next episodes where we go deeper into concrete solution.

00:18:56: And of course you can visit our website, rhoda-schwarz.com.

00:19:00: and yeah maybe we can go a step back as a buster have already spoken about the term lawful intelligence and one off all marketing claims is lawful by design.

00:19:10: but what do we mean with that?

00:19:12: How to be insured?

00:19:13: this lawful

00:19:14: body sign basically means would I describe before when he started signing solution in product after half this in mind.

00:19:20: if you don't have it in mind or you start designing something you can designed into the product once your finished So to be able to sell it through the law enforcement agencies in Germany, we have this in mind right from start.

00:19:33: To support them without technologies

00:19:35: Yeah and maybe one step beyond technology.

00:19:38: This is not a typical commercial market.

00:19:41: It's about trust And also long-term reliability.

00:19:45: What role does commitment play

00:19:47: here?

00:19:48: A very big role I mean if you're not committed to this market.

00:19:52: Let us stick with our mobile phone.

00:19:53: example that stress so many times in our talk today, is mobile phone can be switched.

00:19:59: You can buy a new one within an hour using your mobile phone.

00:20:03: if you want to work with the law enforcement agencies they need to be able to rely on you.

00:20:08: They need to trust you first of all.

00:20:11: The need to rely onto that are still around and five and ten years and fifteen years To support them And this was something we can provide as audience.

00:20:18: once it's family owned company.

00:20:20: We are perfect example of someone staying in a market for long time being reliable partner.

00:20:25: Right, and if you had to summarize it what defines the system that is truly ready for modern investigations?

00:20:32: And do you believe that Roda & Schwarz brings all this to the table?

00:20:37: If I wouldn't believe it would work for Roda&Schwarz.

00:20:39: so To answer your last question first yes Of course!

00:20:43: I truly believe it because to answer your first question, what does that take?

00:20:47: It needs to be flexible and modular.

00:20:50: We need everything to keep up with the change in this world.

00:20:54: At the beginning we talked about how fast change happens.

00:20:58: If you look at a drone threat... ...that wasn't here two or three years ago but now is here.

00:21:03: You will talk about cybercrimes.

00:21:05: when i was kid cybercrime wasn´t even a word so they didn´t exist.

00:21:08: It's here now in a change especially with artificial intelligence every week, every month.

00:21:14: So if you want to counter that unit of the system that keeps up at this pace it means they need to be flexible.

00:21:19: modular needs are able to talk to other systems integrate all the sensors I was talking about.

00:21:24: new sensors might come out any years time.

00:21:27: those will be for me key components or system can really help law enforcement agencies over the coming year.

00:21:33: yeah what i'm taking away from what he just said is It's not about having more data or more tools, it's about turning fragmented information into clear connected and defensible insights as we already mentioned.

00:21:45: And so that decisions can be made with confidence and trust.

00:21:48: yeah this is the decision point at a moment where complexity turns in action.

00:21:53: In next episodes will explore this further from open source intelligence to data fusion analytics.

00:21:58: So if this relevant for you stay tuned.

00:22:03: Thank you, Sebastian for being my first guest and all of your insights.

00:22:07: Dear listeners thank-you for listening to Decision Point the podcast on digital investigation.